--shrunk under the obama administration. i'm going to ask each of you the same question. who won the debate and will it matter. >> i think joe biden clearly won the debate. you can gauge that by the other side complaining by the style issues and not going to the substance. i think it will be merged in the polling data with whatever happens on tuesday in the presidential. but i think they've started a theme. if the president kind of continues in biden's direction it will merge together, and you'll start to see polling data to support that it was a very good debate for the democrats. >> michael: thomas frank. >> i would say biden won on issue but ryan won on decorum. one thing that biden did that i really liked when he would start on those grand rhetorical flights about the wonders of liberalism and the middle class he tend to wander off but those were inspiring. if barack obama could talk that way, they would have this thing in the bag. >> michael: indeed, they would. i think a lot of people were watching it that way. guys, h